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Thursday, January 10, 2008

a look at uncommon descent

I don't often blog about creation and evolution, though several bloggers that I read do. Henry Neufeld writes frequently on the subject. Michael Westmoreland-White is currently in the middle of a comprehensive series on the topic.

These bloggers are quick to note that they are not scientists, and though they both appear to be knowledgeable about scientific matters, they focus more on the theological side of the issue.

On the other hand, organizations like the Discovery Institute and the Creation Museum are quick to trot out lists of scientists who oppose evolution.

A closer look, though, reveals that virtually all of these scientists specialize in fields other than biology. (The same pattern holds for climate change skeptics and climatology, but that's another issue for another time.)

Consider this list of contributors to Uncommon Descent, the blog of Dr. William Dembski, Research Professor in Philosophy at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary, and fellow of the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture.


  • William Dembski: Mathematician and Philosopher
  • Denyse O'Leary: Author
  • Barry Arrington: Accountant
  • Lee Bowman: Entrepreneur
  • Salvador Cordova: Consultant/Engineer
  • Crandaddy: "Philosopher-in-training"
  • DaveScot: Computer Engineer
  • Gil Dodgen: Software Engineer
  • Red: Graduate Student in "biophysical sciences"
  • Scott: Computer Programmer


There's not a biologist in the lot, with the possible exception of "Red", the graduate student in "biophysical sciences". Now if I were challenging the foundation of modern biology, I'd recognize that my biggest weakness is that I don't have a degree in biology, and I'd recruit a first-rate biologist to help develop and test an alternative. Dr. Dembski, on the other hand, has gathered a set of computer and engineering professionals, and blended them in almost equal measure with a group of non-scientists. Is it any wonder that leading biologists do not take this group seriously?

Digging a little deeper, we find just exactly why this group opposes evolution in the first place:

Materialistic ideology has subverted the study of biological and cosmological origins so that the actual content of these sciences has become corrupted. The problem, therefore, is not merely that science is being used illegitimately to promote a materialistic worldview, but that this worldview is actively undermining scientific inquiry, leading to incorrect and unsupported conclusions about biological and cosmological origins.


It's not that the science itself is bad. It's merely been corrupted by a "materialistic ideology", which undermines scientific inquiry. In other words, it's the philosophy, not the science, that Dembski is trying to overthrow.

Now it becomes clear. Philosophy is Dembski's specialty. He does not need to recruit an expert in the field.

But, if this is the route Dembski wishes to take, his task becomes much more difficult. His goal must be to find weaknesses not in evolutionary theory, but in the scientific method itself.

I am not a philosopher, but I am skeptical about his chances for success.

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14 Comments:

At 1/14/2008 4:43 PM, Blogger Craig L. Adams said...

This thinking sounds good to me. Evolutionary theory is too fruitful in biology to simply lay it aside. if the ID folks had something better & more fruitful to propose, well and good... but, they don't.

 
At 1/28/2008 9:56 AM, Blogger Art said...

That list of scientists looks dodgy to me too. In addition to grad student "Red", you also have "Crandaddy: Philosopher-in-training"

?

 
At 2/16/2008 5:52 PM, Blogger gleaner63 said...

A few months ago an interesting exchange took place on the Neil Cavuto Show (Fox News). The debate was between a Global Warming advocate and a skeptic. The advocate, a member of Greenpeace said (paraphrased); "...look, you *are not* a climatologist so no one should take what you say seriously...". Cavuto stepped in and asked the Greenpeace rep what his feild of study was; "...oh...by training I am an economist...". The point is both sides engage in this. When Dawkins or Sagan or Asimov condemn Christianity, a lot of non-believers take their opinions as gospel, although none of the aforementioned have any credentials in theology or anything closely related. According to wikepedia, Dr. Dembski has *7* earned degrees (including 2 PHDs). That's probably almost as many as Sagan, Dawkins and Asimov have combined. I dare say that, agree with Dembski or not, he's probably a very bright fellow.

 
At 11/05/2008 2:24 PM, Anonymous ReluctantFundie said...

Interesting post. An interesting comment was made by one of your posters

When Dawkins or Sagan or Asimov condemn Christianity, a lot of non-believers take their opinions as gospel, although none of the aforementioned have any credentials in theology or anything closely related.

Absolutely true. Not only do they not have any credentials, such as Dawkins is actually proud of the fact that he doesn't know anything. See the preface to the 2nd Edition of the God Delusion and his quote about leprachaunology.

 
At 11/08/2008 9:06 PM, Blogger BruceA said...

ReluctantFundie -

I agree. The God Delusion is a ridiculous book, full of shoddy research and misinformation. I've blogged twice about the book, in case you're interested.

 
At 12/12/2008 7:04 AM, Blogger normdoering said...

Has anyone here ever posted a message on Uncommon Descent and never seen it show up?

I'm collecting information on what kind of censorship is going on at various sites.

 
At 12/12/2008 2:17 PM, Blogger BruceA said...

Norm -

I've heard from several people about comments disappearing from Uncommon Descent. I've never tried to post a comment there myself, mostly because I don't think it's worth my time.

 
At 3/14/2009 12:23 AM, Blogger gleaner63 said...

Bruce,

Regarding your thoughts about comments being deleted at UD, there could very well be good reasons for that, at least from my perspective. Let me explain and you tell me where you disagree. As a former high-school history teacher, "debates" and discussions were very normal in my classes. But, of course, you had to have rules. No name-calling. personal attacks and all that. Why? Well, of course, one of the goals of a debate and/or discussion is to learn something. And the sign of an educated person is that they can discuss and tolerate differing views in a civil and respectful tone. Otherwise, what's the point? So, I think maybe some of the comments may have been removed because of some of the aforementioned reasons. There are people I meet on a daily basis, in person, that I know are not capable of having a discussion without eventually blowing up, hurling insults and in some cases becoming violent. These are the people I *never* talk with about anything other than the weather. Why should anyone tolerate the same kind of people on a blog? You shouldn't. I wouldn't allow it in my classroom, I don't allow it in my home, and I avoid co-workers who fall into that mode. If I had a website, they wouldn't be allowed.

 
At 3/14/2009 8:22 AM, Blogger BruceA said...

gleaner63 -

I won't dispute the right of any blogger to delete comments for whatever reason they see fit. I've deleted comments myself, although for a different reason. (I don't allow comments that advertise products, or promote websites that are not related to the topic of the post they are replying to.)

I don't know the whole story of Uncommon Descent's comment policy; I've seen complaints from people who said they had left comments of respectful disagreement, and still had them deleted. Some have even gone so far as to repost the deleted comments on their own blogs, to show how civil they were. I saw no reason any of the comments should be deleted.

Now I can think of three possible explanations:

1) The critics could be lying; perhaps these comments were not really posted and deleted from UD.
2) Civility is a subjective term; perhaps UD has a higher threshold than I do.
3) The critics could be correct; perhaps UD really is censoring comments.

What's the answer? I'm generally allergic to conspiracy theories, so I doubt it's #1. Other than that, I don't have enough stake in the argument to say who's right.

 
At 3/14/2009 5:55 PM, Blogger gleaner63 said...

Bruce said:

"1) The critics could be lying; perhaps these comments were not really posted and deleted from UD."

I don't think the critics are lying about their posts being deleted, but rather are being a little less than honest about *why* there posts were deleted.


"2) Civility is a subjective term; perhaps UD has a higher threshold than I do."

Sure, it's subjective, but how much? A good comparison might be any debate involving William Lane Craig, or say, the discussions that often erupt over at PZ's site. Isn't the difference obvious? Also, what exactly would you base your "threshold" on? Mine would be the example of my father and how he "carried" himself. Another would be my college professors. Another would be Christianity.


"3) The critics could be correct; perhaps UD really is censoring comments."

If you mean by censoring, not allowing personal attacks, foul or abusive language, then I would agree that UD censors comments. But what they are really doing is setting the table for a decent discussion that when you leave, you don't feel like you need a shower.

 
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